tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post4429345749706787520..comments2023-11-03T11:56:38.726-04:00Comments on the Seforim blog: Taliban Women and MoreDan Rabinowitzhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11519934722728609504noreply@blogger.comBlogger47125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-16481847901095800082012-06-27T21:15:14.967-04:002012-06-27T21:15:14.967-04:00<span> </span><span>"1. Sau...<span> </span><br><span>"1. Saudi Arabia has a tiny population compared to the rest of the Muslim world (the majority of the world's Muslims live in Indonesia)."</span><br />Wrong Indonesia has more Moslems than any iindividual country. India and Pakistan together easily have more Moslems than Indonesia.mycroftnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-76944662829906900332012-06-18T11:50:02.729-04:002012-06-18T11:50:02.729-04:00<span>Although shulchan aruch o.c. 139:8 ref...<span>Although shulchan aruch o.c. 139:8 refers to birchas haTorah before leining as mishum kvod haTorah, interestingly, mishna berura 47:1 refers to as kvod hazibbur. The kvod hazibbur here be referring to b'lshon s'gey nahor that the people did not know how to make birchas haTorah in the morning, so chazal were mesaken birchas haTorah at leining to be mozai others who did not yet make birchas HaTorah? If so, you see another example of kvod hazibbur being a euphemism to compensate a defect in the zibbur. (Even though chazaras hashatz was also for a publicy known reason that people did not know shemoneh esre, it is less of a gnai to explicity acknowledge that the zibbur did not know how to daven shemoneh esre as opposed to not knowing birchas haTorah that are deorays.) So kvod hazibbur could very well be a code word for g'nai hazibbur, bl'shon s'gey nahor.</span><br /><span> <br />Also, as a side point, the psychological origin of the Women Taliban is an unconsciously brilliant passive aggressive protest. Just as the anorexic woman might be unconsciously raging against the insane standards of beauty and perfection by making herself a grotesque caricature of thinness and perfection, so too these "paragons" of tznius are unconsciously and quite brilliantly mocking the charedi establishment by beating them at their own game of chumros potlatch. Coming soon in retaliation...the keiylu kof'o shed movement! <br /></span><br /><span>Also one last comment: an interesting nuance re the gemara in shabbos: as tznius as they may have been, the did put makeup on that one eye! Another great example of unconscious passive aggressive protest, or perhaps more charitably truly a countervailing Jewish tradition to always strive for beauty within the bounds of tznius.</span>simchanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-77964441835609500292012-06-16T23:06:24.731-04:002012-06-16T23:06:24.731-04:00The majority of Muslims do not live in Indonesia. ...The majority of Muslims do not live in Indonesia. Less than 20% of the world's Muslims live there.Wrongnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-30576422143514397972012-06-15T12:22:11.424-04:002012-06-15T12:22:11.424-04:00<span><span>Leor</span><span&...<strong></strong><span><span>Leor</span><span></span><img></img></span> <br /><span>RE Am Ha-Aretz (Yoshvei Kranot) in Hazal and Rabbinic thought, including Rav Kook. See my article which ran on this blog. <a href="http://seforim.blogspot.co.il/2011/05/hadaran-who-is-going-down-to-pit-of.html" rel="nofollow"><span>http://seforim.blogspot.co.il/2011/05/hadaran-who-is-going-down-to-pit-of.html</span></a></span>Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-15147153719687169552012-06-15T12:21:43.352-04:002012-06-15T12:21:43.352-04:00 <span><span>Leor</span><span... <strong></strong><span><span>Leor</span><span></span><img></img></span> <br /><span>I was always very happy with the interpretation that Lamnatzeiach binginos refers to ta'amei hamikra which the rebbe teaches to the students and acc to the Talmud he is allowed to take a salary for, since it is not Torah. Thus, a lot of these issues are deftly hinted at in a couple of words.</span><br />2 days ago, 12:16:36 AM<span><span><span>– </span></span><a rel="nofollow"><span>Flag</span></a></span><span><span><span> – </span></span><a rel="nofollow"><span>Like</span></a></span><span><span><span> – </span></span><a rel="nofollow"><span>Reply</span></a></span><span><span><span> – </span></span><a rel="nofollow"><span>Delete</span></a></span><span><span><span> – </span></span><a rel="nofollow"><span>Edit</span></a></span><span><span><span> – </span></span><a rel="nofollow"><span>Moderate</span></a></span>Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-18089802742995321092012-06-15T12:19:03.409-04:002012-06-15T12:19:03.409-04:00 <span><span>Guest</span><spa... <strong></strong><span><span>Guest</span><span></span><img></img></span> <br /><span>great post as usual, marc. i always thought it was ironic that the sefardi poskim are so machmir in principle on tznius, but practically nowadays the chareidi sefardim are the most lax about tznius, no doubt because they are more influenced by secular israeli culture. it is only when baal tshuva sefardim join fundamentelist chassidic groups and make a complete break with their secular connections that they become even more extreme than the the chassidim and start wearing shawls and covering their faces. here in yerushalayim its been really hot the past few days, and i almost feel bad for these women under all those layers of black clothing. oh well, they took it upon themselves. regarding women referenced who covered their whole face except for one eye, i would hope they they switched off which eye they uncovered, or else the covered eye who become permanently weak, and the uncovered eye very strained. regarding the possuk in shir hashirim that "you excited me with one of your eyes", wouldnt that seem to imply that even one eye uncovered is not tznius, according to the gemara in brachos that learns out hilchos tznius from verses in shir hashirim? i guess you have to say the pesukim brought there are only an asmachta. incidentally, marc, when is your long awaited book coming out?</span>Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-51518994493528721752012-06-13T16:20:25.000-04:002012-06-13T16:20:25.000-04:00"Rashi" on Nedarim almost certainly unde..."Rashi" on Nedarim almost certainly understood the Gemara in light of the other AmHaaretz Gemaras you quote. I see no basis for a presumption that "Rashi" understood any of them literally. Presuming this shows a real lack of understanding as to how Rashi and similar kuntres-style perushim operated.<br /><br />BTW, the Chassidic Minhad of reciting the first two and last two stanzas of Lecha Dodi when Shabbos is on or follows a Yom Tov is very problemastic. Such a recitation implies that Shabbos is the subject of Yamin Usmol Tifrotzi when the subject is in fact Mikdash Melech Ir Melucha.Melech Berlovenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-4175950134469931632012-06-13T16:04:47.194-04:002012-06-13T16:04:47.194-04:00The Kedushas Levi apparently took it from the Mabi...The Kedushas Levi apparently took it from the Mabit<br /><br />בית אלקים (שער היסודות - פרק ששים): והחכמים שימצאו באותו הדור ילמדו חכמת התורה לאותם שנקברו זה כמה שנים, וגם ימצאו ספרי התורה ונביאים וכתובים אשר יהיו באותו הזמן ומהם ילמדו תורה שבכתב ותורה שבעל פה, כפי מה שהוא רמוז בה כפי שלמדו החכמים שבדור ההוא, ואליהו ז"ל ימצא בפרסום בזמן ההוא אשר הוא "תשבי "יתרץ "קושיות "והויות, והוא ישיב לב אבות על בנים ולב בנים על אבותם בכל הדברים ובפרט בקבלת התורה ובכל העניינים שהיו נסתרים בעוה"ז הכל יתגלה על ידי אליהו הנביא, כי שאר הנביאים והשופטים והחכמים אשר היו בדורות העוברים וגם האבות והשבטים וממשה רבינו ע"ה עד ימי התחייה כשיחיו, לא ידעו מענייני העוה"ז ממה שקרה אחרי מותם, כי היו בג"ע התחתון והעליון מובדלים מענייני העוה"ז הגשמי, אבל אליהו ז"ל אשר חיה מימות משה רבינו עד ימי יהורם ידע כל מה שהיה בימיו, ואחר הסתלקותו בגוף ונפש נזדכך גופו כאחד מן הגרמים השמימיים או יותר, והכינו האל יתברך להמצא בעת צרת ישראל להצילם על ידו ובזכותו בכל הדורות אשר הם צריכים לו, ומתגלה ג"כ לחכמי ישראל לגלות להם סודות התורה כפי הכנת כל דור ודור, מלבד מה שמקובל אצלנו היותו מצוי נ(מצות ברית מילה אשר קנא עליה ואנחנו מכינים בפועל כסא לכבודו:Daas Torahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07252904288544083215noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-55941021470993972492012-06-13T15:44:16.895-04:002012-06-13T15:44:16.895-04:00It happens in Canada too. I get around it by ente...It happens in Canada too. I get around it by entering the url as http://seforim.blogspot.com/ncr - ncr stands for no-country-redirect, and takes me to the .com site instead of .ca. A quick Google search came up with instructions for basically pushing that solution out to everyone: <a href="http://www.itechcolumn.com/2012/04/disable-country-specific-url-redirect.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.itechcolumn.com/2012/04/disable-country-specific-url-redirect.html</a>. I have no expertise in this area, and don't vouch for the correctness or legality of their solution.Davidnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-7255028919392204572012-06-13T13:55:26.251-04:002012-06-13T13:55:26.251-04:00On the last point, note ושליו. (The ש is a שוא נח,...On the last point, note ושליו. (The ש is a שוא נח, as are, I believe, all אותיות שוואיות following a ו במלאפום at the beginning of a word; likewise for the ל of ולשדך (without tampering)).<br /><br />Also, there is a difference between the פתח גנובה and the others in that in ordinary questionable cases it isn't a matter of simply 'deviating' from the meter, one 'corrects' the nekudos in consonance (ha!) with one's agenda. No 'correction' is possible with regards to a פתח גנובה.<br /><br />As an aside, אֲדון עולם is a perfect example of a piyut with perfect meter for both יתדות and תנועות. This actually ties in nicely with Marc's other posts about the meaning of Adon Olam; if אדון was menukad with a פתח it would mean 'eternal master', but since, for metrical purposes, the first letter had to be a שווא, it must mean 'master of the world'!Transientnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-16362647476534653252012-06-13T13:28:43.935-04:002012-06-13T13:28:43.935-04:00This is a problem with previous posts as well. The...This is a problem with previous posts as well. There is a 2 day-old comment on your previous Kalir piece which appears only on the Hebrew site.Transientnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-67702357413311239902012-06-13T11:53:54.075-04:002012-06-13T11:53:54.075-04:00To Nachum's last point: it wouldn't mean d...To Nachum's last point: it wouldn't mean doing the actual teaching on Shabbos, just arranging with someone on Shabbos to do it during the week.Alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-42367513696373669782012-06-13T07:43:59.883-04:002012-06-13T07:43:59.883-04:00<span><span>Guest</span><span...<strong></strong><span><span>Guest</span><span></span><img></img></span> <br /><span>great post as usual, marc. i always thought it was ironic that the sefardi poskim are so machmir in principle on tznius, but practically nowadays the chareidi sefardim are the most lax about tznius, no doubt because they are more influenced by secular israeli culture. it is only when baal tshuva sefardim join fundamentelist chassidic groups and make a complete break with their secular connections that they become even more extreme than the the chassidim and start wearing shawls and covering their faces. here in yerushalayim its been really hot the past few days, and i almost feel bad for these women under all those layers of black clothing. oh well, they took it upon themselves. regarding women referenced who covered their whole face except for one eye, i would hope they they switched off which eye they uncovered, or else the covered eye who become permanently weak, and the uncovered eye very strained. regarding the possuk in shir hashirim that "you excited me with one of your eyes", wouldnt that seem to imply that even one eye uncovered is not tznius, according to the gemara in brachos that learns out hilchos tznius from verses in shir hashirim? i guess you have to say the pesukim brought there are only an asmachta. incidentally, marc, when is your long awaited book coming out?</span><br /><span></span><br /><span><span><strong></strong><span>Nachum </span></span><span></span><span><img></img></span><span> <br /></span><span><span>-Could "Lamenatzeach benignos" be referring to a specific chapter of Tehillim said on Shabbat? <br /> <br />-How would one teach omanut to his son on Shabbat?</span></span></span><br /><strong></strong><span><img></img></span><span>Nachum</span><span><span>View details</span></span><span></span><span></span>Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-487506671504843452012-06-13T07:43:01.107-04:002012-06-13T07:43:01.107-04:00<span><span>Leor </span></spa...<span><strong></strong><span>Leor </span></span><br /><br /><span></span><br /><span><img></img></span><span> <br /></span><span><span>RE Am Ha-Aretz (Yoshvei Kranot) in Hazal and Rabbinic thought, including Rav Kook. See my article which ran on this blog. </span><a href="http://seforim.blogspot.co.il/2011/05/hadaran-who-is-going-down-to-pit-of.html" rel="nofollow">http://seforim.blogspot.co.il/2011/05/hadaran-who-is-going-down-to-pit-of.html</a></span><br /><span></span><br /><span><span><strong></strong><span>Leor </span></span><span></span><span><img></img></span><span> <br /><span>I was always very happy with the interpretation that Lamnatzeiach binginos refers to ta'amei hamikra which the rebbe teaches to the students and acc to the Talmud he is allowed to take a salary for, since it is not Torah. Thus, a lot of these issues are deftly hinted at in a couple of words.</span></span></span><br /><strong></strong><span><img></img></span><span>Leor</span><span><span>View details</span></span><span></span><span></span><br /><br /><br /><br /><strong></strong><span><img></img></span><span>Leor</span><span><span>View details</span></span><span></span><span></span>Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-39587643358617437972012-06-13T07:42:11.928-04:002012-06-13T07:42:11.928-04:00For some reason, the comments from people in Israe...For some reason, the comments from people in Israel are only appearing on the mirror site (that ends co.il, not here. If anyone knows how to fix this, please let us know. I will transfer the comments.Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-82868354757525640552012-06-13T06:21:57.579-04:002012-06-13T06:21:57.579-04:001. Saudi Arabia has a tiny population compared to ...1. Saudi Arabia has a tiny population compared to the rest of the Muslim world (the majority of the world's Muslims live in Indonesia).<br />2. Saudi Arabia's traditions concerning women driving are based on cultural customs, not Islamic law.<br />3. You are absolutely wrong that women driving in Iran is part of an Islamic "reform" movement. The Salafi movement in Saudi Arabia, from which the religious establishment there has established its anti-modernist stance, is very new. Iran is a Shia' country, which means that the religious establishment will have different interpretations of many things, but they are just as "frum" as Saudi. If you will remember, they had a revolution in 1979 that established Islamic law in the country, and the religious leadership has not become more liberal.<br /><br />Muslim women driving is a question of minhag, if anything. Really, it's a question of culture and politics.Robinnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-6159420325563343762012-06-12T22:38:17.742-04:002012-06-12T22:38:17.742-04:00<p>Interesting. It hadn't occurred to me...<p>Interesting. It hadn't occurred to me to treat שואs differently for metrical purposes, but I see how so doing makes the meter much more regular. That said, the occasional deviation from meter is a standard practice in English poetry, at least, so it wouldn't surprise me to find it in פיוטים as well, especially when it comes to 'half-syllables' like the פתח גנובה. You yourself point out similar inconsistencies with the חטף פתח, for instance.<br /><br />Then again, if the extra syllable of למנצח בנגנות is bothersome, perhaps the simplest emendation would be to change it to Marc's grammatical version: לנצח בנגנות. That would have the right number of syllables, and it's easy to see how it could have been mistakenly "corrected" to the current version (as opposed to the ללמדו אומנות theory, which requires deliberate substitution).<br /><br />With regard to the initial מלאפום, perhaps the rule is: "Count it when followed by a שוא but not when immediately followed by a תנועה." That makes intuitive sense to me, as surely there's a limit to how many sounds can be merged into a single syllable.</p>Judahnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-87411684163635973252012-06-12T21:42:21.736-04:002012-06-12T21:42:21.736-04:00 Marc, any talmudist can tell you (while there are... Marc, any talmudist can tell you (while there are a couple of opposite extreme stories - kaaki cheevari, keshura, etc ) there must be hundreds of stories of Amoraim who were worried of the effects the ladies might have on them. <em>ein apitropis laarios!</em><br />Once you concede that our level of Yiras Shamayim has declined, the 'modern' acceptance of saying we are conditioned.. is more probable a sign of that lesser fear, than any higher asexual being!Chaimnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-50575081501459626382012-06-12T21:35:37.015-04:002012-06-12T21:35:37.015-04:00I'd like to know on what basis either of them ...I'd like to know on what basis either of them claims this. Isn't one of the hallmarks of the so-called stammaic passages that the give-and-take is anonymous? Here, every single statement is sourced to a named tanna or amora, or to a baraisa (which would be, at the latest, from the early Amoraic period).Alexnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-90640513337500060202012-06-12T19:11:46.846-04:002012-06-12T19:11:46.846-04:00<span>Also see Stuart Miller's recent bo...<span>Also see Stuart Miller's recent book which deals with the topic.</span>Marcnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-36693093229192289902012-06-12T18:43:20.129-04:002012-06-12T18:43:20.129-04:00<p><span>See the Az Nidbaru (vol. 10, ...<p><span>See the Az Nidbaru (vol. 10, 35) about looking at women in photographs, where he asks the author of Toras Ha’histaklus to answer his “urgent question being that people can be misled etc.”. (A bit off track here - also interesting is that R. Kraus, who is Chassidish, in his Divrei Shalom (vol. 6, 129) after </span><span>differentiating</span><span> between glancing and staring with regards to looking at women/picture, is “lenient” in permitting the use of kosher wine which a gentile gazed upon (however there is makom l’heir on his words, aside from what he himself bases some of his proceeding responsa). Also brings to mind the Kitvei Abba Mari (pg. 66) who suggests – and I think it is his own chiddush – that that was the reason for the unique title given to R. Menachem br. Simai (Psachim 104a) who was not familiar with the “tzurta d’matbea”. Yet even though the simple understanding of the Gemara can be interpreted to mean that he would refrain from looking at the images on the coins (see Rabbeinu Chananel to Shabbos 129a), it’s doubtful that pshat is as he asserts.</span><br /></p><p> <br /></p>Ovadyanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-49378742627506630442012-06-12T18:23:17.476-04:002012-06-12T18:23:17.476-04:00Yes, the page before was mistakenly posted. It has...Yes, the page before was mistakenly posted. It has been corrected. Editornoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-30658055275088844302012-06-12T17:23:12.299-04:002012-06-12T17:23:12.299-04:00I forgot to add:
If you read "Life is with t...I forgot to add:<br /><br />If you read "Life is with the People", a study of the shtetel from the 1950s by some irreligious anthropologists, they describe the husband learning and the wife supporting the family as the norm.<br /><br />This is not consistent with all other evidence, and I imagine they must have exagerated or been misled. But I would think it does show that it wasn't completely uncommon either.Fotheringay-Phippsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-66301586597307924282012-06-12T17:20:23.754-04:002012-06-12T17:20:23.754-04:001. I think your "kal vechomer" is a &quo...1. I think your "kal vechomer" is a "kal vechomer shel shtus".<br /><br />Everyone agrees that men should (ideally) not look at women's faces. But ordinarily, women going outside with their faces uncovered are not going there for the express purpose of having men look at their faces. Men can refrain from looking at them. When you put these pictures in magazines, it's for the express purpose of having readers look at them.<br /><br />[Note this is NOT an endorsement of the policy of not publishing women's faces, but just a note about the "kal vechomer"]<br /><br />2. R' Messas pshat in kavod hatzibur is a huge dochek, because Chazal said all sorts of things were forbidden because they might cause arousal, and were never troubled by the implication such that they had to give other bogus reasons. (It should be noted, BTW, that there are rishonim who do give kol isha as the reason for women not leining Megillas Esther.)<br /><br />3. It's possible that if clergy become mandated reporters, the only approved approach will be to call rabbis who live in other countries and are thus out of reach of these laws.<br /><br />4. The idea that kol isha does not apply to women's voices over the radio or tapes is quoted from the BR and RYSE. (There are some - e.g. R' Wosner - who distinguish between radio & tape/CD, presumably because of uncertainty over whether radio (or phone) has the status of an actual voice.)<br /><br />5. Unless I'm missing something, Benny Hutman's diyuk is nonsense, because the Gemara uses that same language about a variety of things ("shok b'isha erva" etc.) which most poskim do not accept as being dependent on what people are used to. I believe RMF went to some length to explain that hair is different than other body parts, in that it's really learned from Sotah and not Shir Hashirim. [BTW, FWIW, RMF held that you should not really rely on this AHS, although he did hold that what he said was likely correct.]Fotheringay-Phippsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15222965.post-32141418143893075062012-06-12T16:58:19.112-04:002012-06-12T16:58:19.112-04:00<span>From Yehudah Mirsky
<span>Fw...<span>From Yehudah Mirsky <br /> <br /><span>Fwiw, as I recall, Steve Wald in his book on Eilu Ovrin shows that he genuinely awful am-haartez passages in Pesachim are a later stammatic addition, and that Jeff Rubinstein argues has a chapter on this in his "The Culture of the Babylonian Talmud" where he argues both that that sugya in Pesachim is sui generis in Hazal and - interestingly - reflects the Stammaim's needing to justify their very scholastic lifestyle vis-a-vis people who were working for a living. Rubinstein cautions that the whole sugya may have been intended as a series of private jokes and need not necessarily reflect actual social relations between the stammaim and their surrounding society.</span></span>Marcnoreply@blogger.com